we all know degrees dont measure skill and some are easier than others to get. degrees are pointless, you evaluate the persons actual skills. are you seriously saying that teaching letters to a kid is just as difficult as solving differential equations on time because there is a deadline tomorrow on your math software?

also, you just did classic feminazi reasoning.

R: I say its because they are female jobs they are paid less
M: its not *lists other reasons*
R: no its because they are female jobs

its like arguing with a christian about the bible being written by god.



why? first of all, some points I forgot:
- the female friends I know who work in kindergardens all have useless degrees (eg, arts, social science stuff) meaning its not a job you pick because you want to, you do it because you are unemployed. like a street cleaner.
- deadlines = responsibility = responsibility drives up pay. as a teacher you can just do a mediocre job and get by.

I am basing the pay thing on the IT industry where the more boring a job is the higher the pay. I extrapolate and assume its the same everywhere there are enough workers to compete over the fun jobs. if you disagree and can give examples lets discuss it.

what Raimo posted are legit concerns (reponsible jobs with low pay, lacking social safety for having kids, problems with equal work/pay) and they should be adressed, but they have nothing to do with equal opportunity and would not be solved by quotas.

// adding that the MA kindergarten staff are another tragedy of the bologna system but vOv

Yep, I'm seriously saying teaching kids *well* is just as difficult as your stressful math/IT crap, and IMHO way more important to the well being of our species.

Also, these days it's not often done *well*, like you said we all know incompetent wannabes who get jobs at kindergartens etc - it's because there's a serious shortage of educated workforce (at least here), all them smarter people with them BA's and MA's left the field entirely because of the shit pay and appreciation


Weren't you saying deadlines mean higher pay before?

I totally agree. teachers are incredibly important and quality has gone down a lot since even before I was a kid. I assume because nobody wants to work low paid jobs where they get no respect anymore. but I wasnt arguing that, I was arguing that his reasoning was flawed

To be fair regular kindergarten teachers around here are BAs, and the nannys are lower schooled. MAs are for specialist teachers (for handicapped kids etc)

But what I'm hinting at here is that in reality, working with kids is actually hard and IMHO very, very important and underappreciated. There's also a lot of skill and theory involved. Morel seeing it as a "cleaner-style" job just highlights the problem, we are taking too little care of our children. (And it's showing)


Ed:


ARGH

this forum is improving btw, we got threads arguing now evil equality is and the merits of child porn whats next? cannibalism?

honestly nexus and co you are being quite aggressive in your responses without much argument being added

its easy to be all white knight when you are a laid back student but if it was you running a small company / firm I wonder how happy you would be about quotas forcing you to hire lower ranked candidates; or having an important employee going "BRB BABBY XD"

also http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/4546 hey look where is your equality now

also if serious looking pdf-s instead of theoretical constructs have more gravitas, here are two n1:

* On Norway boardroom diversity quotas: "we also find significant decreases in operating performance and higher costs as a result of the imposition of the quota. these results are consistent with boards of directors that lack sufficient experience to act as capable advisors" (from the conclusion of http://webuser.bus.umich.edu/adittmar/N ... .05.20.pdf ; skim the abstract as well while you're at it), also p 32 "the gender quota imposed large enough costs on firms that those most affected avoided the law by changing their legal status" lolol harmful quotas evaded 0wn3d.

* German example of numbers being a shitty, useless goal: "gender quotas have succeeded in bringing more women into elective office in Germany not by raising women's political ambition or interest, but by forcing parties to recruit unambitious women to run for elective office while limiting opportunities for more politically ambitious men", p 26 of http://moya.bus.miami.edu/~ldavidson-schmi/Midwest.pdf

hey guys teachers are not paid enough so we should have 40% fixed women quota in company boards :derpdown:

tbh i think its offensive to women that people think they need handouts to succeed. thats such a load of crap.


women can be as successful as men if they want. without handouts.